Talk:Issy Smith

	Issy Smith is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 22, 2011.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 8, 2007 WikiProject peer review Reviewed September 24, 2007 WikiProject A-class review Approved September 29, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 11, 2023, and September 11, 2024. Current status: Featured article

This article was created or added to during the Victoria Cross Reference Migration. It may contain material that was used with permission from victoriacross.net.

This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography: Military This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance). Military history: South Pacific / British / European / World War I This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles Associated task forces: /  Australia, New Zealand and South Pacific military history task force British military history task force European military history task force World War I task force Additional information: /  This article has passed an A-Class review. Australia: Military history Mid‑importance Issy Smith is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Australia, New Zealand and South Pacific military history task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Need help improving this article? Ask a LibrarianWhat's this? at the National Library of Australia. The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance. Jewish history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

/Archive 1/Archive 2

Issy Smith's Order of St. George was not awarded for "rescuing Russian soldiers in Mesopotamia". It was awarded, along with the Croix de Guerre, just a few days after his Victoria Cross, on the 26th April 1915. It was customary for other Allied governments to make reciprocal awards. Source: The London Gazette, Issue 29272. As the article states, the Manchesters sailed from Marseilles for Basra on December 10th, 1915. The only contact between British and Russian troops was at Diyala, and the Manchesters weren't there.

168 Issy Smith does not appear on the role of recipents of the Durbar medal (whereas my grandfather does).

The whole history of Issy Smith is uncertain. This is from British Army Service Records 1760-1915:

First name(s): Issy Last name: SMITH Calculated year of birth: 1887 Parish of birth: Town of birth: London County of birth: Middlesex Age at attestation: 17 years 8 months Attestation date: 21 April 1904 Attestation corps: 6TH MANC REGT Attestation soldier number: 9946

As you can see, his birthplace is given as East London, and his battalion as 6th Manchesters. Other sources say that he enlisted at Ashton-under-Lyne, and that he transferred to Mesopotamia in September 1916.

I doubt we shall ever know the true story, but the part about the Russian medal is definitely wrong. Hengistmate (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting to read that three battalions comprised the Jullundur Brigade, Issy Smith being in 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment, with an overseas (India) battalion establishment of 940 men during peacetime. From the Brigade of approximately 3000 men, there were only 16 medals for distribution to WOs, NCOs and Other Ranks, excluding members of the band, for whom 6 medals had been allocated. It's not many medals, relative to the persons present. Keith H99 (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Out of a book strength of 940 men (Corporals, Lance Corporals, Privates), only 84 men were in receipt of the Delhi Durbar Medal, according to research done by the Manchester Regiment group. One of the men on the list is Private Alfred Burley. Four "music men" were in receipt of the medal

https://www.themanchesters.org/indexold.html

Website for the Manchester Regiment group is above. Keith H99 (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.themanchesters.org/dehli%20durbar.htm

The above is a link to the Deli Durbar page. Keith H99 (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am a descendant of Issy. I'm currently writing his biography which I expect to publish next year when it is completed. After pouring over family records, interviewing his son and following extensive research, in most cases of official records, I have been able to uncover previously unknown details about him as well as confirm that a lot of information circulating is incorrect. I would like to adjust this when I have completed the research. It is great to come across this page and see the interest about him, and fantastic that his story has appeared as a feature article. He hasn't been forgotten.LAMK2020 (talk) 07:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very pleased to see this. I exchanged emails with Issy's son a few years ago. He didn't have much information other than the accepted story. I also made enquiries at the Portuguese synagogue in Manchester but drew a blank, and couldn't find any trace of the street where Issy is supposed to have lived. If you have new information, then that's excellent. As you can see from the above, there are many contradictions in this story. Something that intrigues me is how a ten-year-old boy can sail as a stowaway to a foreign country (if that's what he did), and conduct an existence there. Where did he live? Did he, and if so how did he, go to school? Could he read and write? How did he eat? I look forward to reading your account. Good luck. Hengistmate (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hengismate - hoping you are still on air after two years! Please see my note below regarding the book that is now released. I would be pleased to talk to you further. Kind regards LAMK2020 (talk) 02:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are many contradictions and it has been a painstaking process to sort out the fact from fiction. He was trying to reach his brothers in London. He stowed away at age 11, actually twice - he was found by one of the crew on his first attempt, at Port Said on the Suez Canal (it is possible he did not know where he was going!). He stayed with the Harbour Master for five days before a suitable ship was available to take him home. He then wasted no time in boarding a new ship on which he made it successfully to London. Although he spoke three languages, English was not one of them then, yet he was able to find his brothers. The rest will be in the story! — Preceding unsigned comment added by LAMK2020 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear team

I have been in touch previously. I am the granddaughter of Sergeant Issy Smith VC and I have just published a book on his life story. I am not sure who I spoke to last time, but the editor mentioned that he was keen to hear more as there were gaps in Issy's history and it was believed that we would never know the real story. This inspired the title of the book, which is RATBAG SOLDIER SAINT - the real story of Sergeant Issy Smith VC. The book is the result of two years extensive research which includes interviews with family. It is now time to update the webpage to correct the inaccuracies. If you can let me know how i can assist, I would be happy to provide you with more information. Kind regards Lian Knight LAMK2020 (talk) 02:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that was me. I'm delighted to hear that you've made progress. What do you want to do now? Hengistmate (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hengistmate - there are parts of Issy's wikipedia article that need to be updated, now that more facts are known. Would you like me to do this, and how would you like me to provide the information? 58.179.93.207 (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Long time no communication. Are you still working on Issy's story? Hengistmate (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article has a sentence that starts Some sources state that Smith was present. The only source attributed in the article is the sales pitch for his medals from the Noonan's website.

He immediately joined up at the St Kilda Road Barracks, Melbourne, in August 1914, and was present with the Australian Contingent the following month at the capture of German possessions in New Guinea. However, as a British Army Reservist he was obliged to rejoin the colours .... and duly proceeded to France in H.M.A.S. Sydney. He arrived on the Western Front with the Indian Contingent, and was among the substantial number of Manchesters wounded at Givenchy on 24 December, 1914. He was again wounded on 11 March, 1915, at Neuve Chapelle, and performed the deed which secured him the Victoria Cross on 26 April, 1915

There is oral history from his son on the older talk page, but I am not seeing other sources.

The Daily Herald, 28th. August 1915, An interview with Sergeant Rooke of 1st. Battalion The Manchester Regiment,-- stated that Smith, on the outbreak of War in 1914, went with the Australian Army to assist in the capture of German New Guinea. Then with other Reservists, he was sent Overseas to join his old Regimental .Sargeant Rooke said that Corporal Smith left for France in February 1915, and after staying in Rouen for some time, was sent to the Front Line on 9th. March. It was during this time that the two formed a close friendship

There is a roll of the seaman who took part, and I wondered if there was a roll for the soldiers, too.

Had it been the case that he did actively participate, I would have thought he would have been obliged to enlist, and would have an AIF service record as a consequence. Given that he was in the army, reenlisting was not permitted. Had the army reservists of the British Army actively participated, they would have been entitled to the 1914-15 Star for this campaign.

He would have been mobilised on 5 August 1914, and he did not deploy to the Western Front until 23 February 1915. It is lucky that his British Army service record survived the 1940 fire.

So, the questions are: Can it be proven that he actively participated in any combat here? Is there evidence that he was on hand, as part of a reserve force, if reinforcements were needed? Keith H99 (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He commenced his military service under Militia terms of service on 21 April 1904

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F1029%2F1522785

He then served under regular terms of service with the Manchester Regiment, his 12 years commencing on 2 September 1904. What is peculiar is that he enlisted in London, despite having previously moved to Manchester.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7273698%2F131%2F1438

It is most fortunate that these records have survived. Keith H99 (talk) 12:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Smith served eight years in the British Army and was a reservist when war broke out in 1914. He was immediately mobilized and sailed with the first convoy from Australia that left Western Australia on 1 November 1914. There were 38 Australian transports or troopships (36 from Albany and two from Fremantle) and 10 New Zealand transports. The convoy reached Alexandria on 3 December 1914 and the ships with British reservists continued to the UK. The troops of the Australian Naval and Military Expeditionary (ANMEF) Force were separate to the Australian Army special volunteer force known as the Australian Imperial Force. The ANMEF was not relieved until early 1915 and many men who were in Rabaul in 1914 did join the Australin Army after returning to Australia. It is worth a footnote that the claim has been made but it seems unlikely and there is no official documentation to support the statement that Issy Smith served in the ANMEF. Anthony Staunton (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AN&MEF departed Sydney on 19 August. The task force reached Rabaul on 11 September. The remaining German forces surrendered on 21 September. I am not seeing evidence of Imperial Reservists being sent there, then returned immediately after hostilities.

Issy Smith embarked SS Miltiades on 21 October 1914, this has come to light. This has been known since 2008.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/76050-imperial-reservists/page/3/#comment-899978

It appears that it reached Plymouth on 22 December 1914. One eye-witness account mentions they were given four days furlough upon arrival, which I would imagine would be needed after two months cooped up on a troopship. The clerk has recorded on his army service record that Smith rejoined the regimental depot on 19 December 1914, but a date closer to 29 December seems more likely. Keith H99 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The troopship convoy was escorted by HMAS Australia. It is as though any and every action involving her has led to him being associated with the attack on German New Guinea. He was not there, HMAS Australia was. I saw a newspaper article of the time that referred to him witnessing the sinking of the Emden, which is not plausible. Keith H99 (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The medal write-up was done in 1995 on a best endeavour basis. As mentioned, we know that he did not sail aboard HMAS Australia, neither to Plymouth, and certainly not from Southampton to Le Havre.

The write-up states he 'was among the substantial number of Manchesters wounded at Givenchy on 24 December, 1914' but sources presently available tell us that he did not arrive in France until 23 February 1915.

The write-up states 'He immediately joined up' but that was not possible, given he was already serving a 12 year contract under regular terms of service in the British Army.

It looks like it was on 16 October 1912 that he took the train to London, met his brother, and had the encounter with his wife-to-be. Keith H99 (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To quote from earlier

'The ANMEF was not relieved until early 1915 and many men who were in Rabaul in 1914 did join the Australian Army after returning to Australia.'

Yes, I concur. Edmond Burke enlisted in the ANMEF on 11 August 1914. He was discharged on 4 March 1915 upon returning. On 11 March 1915, he enlisted in the RANBT and went to Gallipoli.

I believe it was the same for John Hartley Beton, James Edward Butler and Arthur William Houston Lang, to name but a few. Keith H99 (talk) 18:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In conclusion, it appears there was a scoop that appeared in the Daily Mail. This became the "golden source" for provincial publications that regurgitated it, usually plagiarised, but attributed in at least one instance.

'V.C. hero from Australia Acting Corporal Issy Smith V.C. was a reservist of the 1st [Battalion] Manchester Regiment living in Australia when the war broke out. With an Australian force he assisted in the capture of German New Guinea.'

The primary sources from the Australian Military and the British Army service record do not support this assertion, and it has only been in recent years that these have become available. They were not there when the medal sales pitch was written up in 1995. Keith H99 (talk) 12:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Troops of the French Army fought alongside the soldiers of King George V at the Second Battle of Ypres. Was it the case that the exploits of valour of the VC winners were mentioned in despatches of the French Army, with the result that Smith and others had entitlement to the Croix de Guerre? Keith H99 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I have seen of many soldiers of this time period is the following: they are sent back to Southampton, they spend about four days in "quarantine" at Fort Brockhurst discharge depot, and then they leave. I would imagine that in many cases, these men would head to Fort Brockhurst railway station, head to Fareham, and take the train to London Waterloo station.

The newspaper story mentions Charing Cross station, but this is the wrong station. The writer states that 'a British regiment was returning to England from India' but this was not the case. The battalion stayed put, men who had done their time were going back to the British Isles, travelling back on the troopships that had transported their replacement drafts to India.

Pages 203 to 206 of Lian Knight's book, accessed via kobo (1321 digital folios rather than 300+ paper pages), talk about Issy Smith and Alfred Burley met up with two sisters whom they would marry in 1919. Keith H99 (talk) 22:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Born in Alexandria
• Father was a clerk at the French Consular Service
• His parents had French citizenship
• His recruiting sergeant gave him a new name
• He won the army middleweight boxing championship
• Awarded Delhi Durbar medal, so will be on the medal roll
• Was awarded Russian medal in 1917 for rescuing Russian soldiers in Mesopotamia
• His parents, who had remained in Egypt, both disowned him for marrying a Gentile.

Australian Dictionary of Biography

This had been used as a source for a number of facts in the article. I am calling out the items above as inaccurate, given that more source material has come to light since then. Lian Knight's book has to be the definitive secondary source on his biography. Keith H99 (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not only, but also

• wounded five times during the war
• migrated with the family in 1925

Lian Knight's book must have taken an age to research. His actual biography is one story, the myths and misinformation about him are another. Keith H99 (talk) 14:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Being wounded five times was sourced from the following obituaries, reproduced by the ANU

https://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/smith-issy-8473/text24947

https://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/smith-issy-8473/text24948

The above also places him in the King's bodyguard. Keith H99 (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am accessing this as an eBook, and think it advisable to also add chapter info to the talk page, in addition to the page numbers.

Keith H99 (talk) 19:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]