Welcome to Volume 2 of The Flag, a monthly series featuring transgender artists in both performance and printed conversation. As this series continues, it becomes increasingly apparent that I can no longer handle this on my own. The Flag team will be expanding significantly in the coming weeks. If you are interested in helping out, please reach out at orchiddbb (at) proton (dot) me.
Do you all remember WHAM? It was a “jam” that used to be held at Record Shop Red Hook around 2023-24. That is where I met Francesca. We got paired in a first time group that also included my friend Dylan DelGiudice. We stayed in touch after the jam, and became friends. We have performed dozens of times since then. We are also neighbors. Francesca’s work is absolutely fascinating: whether affixed to a single horn, changing instruments throughout, or operating homemade electronics, Francesca’s sound world feels incredibly considered, consistent, and personal. She frequently performs in duo with Alex McGrath, and if you have not seen them play live, I strongly recommend you prioritize doing so.
River Sadowsky is someone who I was first introduced to by (Flag vol.1 performer) Selendis Sebastian Alexander Johnson. The introduction was indirect. I was told that River kept getting mistaken for me, which is utterly hilarious. I don’t think we look that alike, but I kept seeing River around at shows, and eventually we ended up in a quintet performing music by Klavya. A relative newcomer, River’s work as both a bandleader and electric bassist is vibrant, colorful, and wide-ranging. With doses of fusion, noise, rock, and dare-I-say straight ahead jazz, her project Danger Room supplies an intense, and maybe even danceable, experience to listeners.
For the second issue of The Flag, I spoke to Francesca H. and River Sadowsky (of Danger Room) about instrument choice, collaboration, and being part of a larger scene.
- Orchid McRae
Orchid: First off, I am realizing that you may have never met. Do y'all know each other?
Francesca H.: No, I don't think we've met.
River Sadowsky: We've seen each other around a few times. I've seen you play.
Francesca: I recognize you, but I just don't remember if we've been introduced.
River: We all played together last week, didn't we? Yeah, we played in Selendis’s [Sebastian Alexander Johnson] Big Band!
Orchid: Right! When did you see Francesca play?
River: Definitely first at the laundromat, a pretty likely place for any of us. And probably a few times with the [Selendis's] Big Band.
Orchid: So what do each of you do?
Francesca: I’m Francesca, I’m a composer and improviser.
River: I’m River, I'd also describe myself that way: as a bassist and composer. I've been playing with my band Danger Room for a while. We're kind of like a fusion outfit, whatever that means. That's kind of my main venture as a band leader.
Orchid: Rad. Who are the members of Danger Room and how did you meet your collaborators?
River: It's a quintet and most of them were close friends while I was studying at The New School. Our drummer, Angelo [Limentani], I know because I asked him to be in this band. It's been a pretty consistent lineup for a while now. This show kind of marks what seems to be the start of a period of more consistent playing, So, that's exciting. Hudson [Brubacker] is probably the person I play with the most. We play together in so many projects. So much so, we jokingly call ourselves the Hudson River duo. Pretty soon, we are sharing a bill with Danger Room, and then after we get off we're coming back and I'm playing bass in his band that same night. Tanzanite [Chen] is the other guitar player. We play together a lot; she's great. Saxophonist Aaron [Mead] and I often appear together as backing musicians for other people. Hudson, Tanzanite and I recorded an album with our friend Marghertia Corsi recently.
Orchid: Francesca, you'll be playing solo on the 30th. What will you be doing? I've seen you play a number of times and every time you're tweaking a setup or like playing a different horn or doing something, not necessarily radically different, but an expansion or alteration of your practice.
Francesca: For the performance, I’m playing solo soprano saxophone with some minimal preparations. My relationship with that instrument is multifaceted; I've always really really loved the extreme ranges of the saxophone and particularly the soprano. As of late, my relationship to instruments has been very economically determined, and I retain like fewer and fewer instruments. My practice has been very influenced by things like portability and to some degree affordability, as well as what I can reasonably allocate time towards dealing with.
Orchid: Soprano is the most portable saxophone, unless you're playing Sopranino. As a drummer, I sometimes wish I just played an instrument of the size of a soprano and could throw it in a backpack and just go. Affordability is very real. Again, as a drummer, it’s like “I’ll get a new cymbal” and I look and it’s like “that will be $600, no thanks, I’m good.” I totally feel the impulse to use what you have, and apply it to your practice and make it work. Regarding portability, the bass is a completely different thing. River, do you play acoustic bass at all?
River: I'm definitely primarily an electric player and I always have been. I have played upright for a while. I recently decided that I might stop though. For me, it's just about kind of like specialization. I think I have a very particular thing going on on electric. Most of the people in the scene are acoustic bass players and a lot of them are very good at it, and I think I'd rather get better at my niche more.
Orchid: Yeah, I really respect the specialization route and leaning into the thing that works. Francesca, you also have a number of consistent collaborations and projects, outside of playing solo. Could you talk a bit about your other collaborations?
Francesca: My most longstanding collaboration is with my partner, Alex [McGrath]. We've been making music together pretty consistently for five years in a variety of different capacities. For the most part, it has involved wind instruments and electronics, but in its earliest time, it was just us both using a variety of electronics that are mostly homemade. Our roles have really switched around a lot in recent years where Alex has really come into her own as an instrument maker and circuit designer, and she has gotten pretty deep in defining her own setup and material. I think both the thing that's consistent through this project is a deep concentration on materials and being as concerned with material as a visual artist would be. For me, I stopped really being— I love electronics, but I stopped being compelled to work with them. I wanted to return to mostly just doing things that are done with the body and that involve things that you can think of in real time with your mind. That's like the most long-standing collaboration. But there are definitely people in the scene in New York that I adore and that I like playing with pretty consistently.I mean, you are one of them. I've really enjoyed numerous projects of yours I’ve taken part in. And of course, Selendis. I feel like not only have I been able to like, grow and gain some degree of confidence working in Selendis’s big band, but it's also—both spiritually and socially—a really beautiful thing that I always feel refreshed by taking part in. I'm grateful for that. And, for whatever it's worth, that group has always been beloved by many people I know. I feel it is a pretty widely adored project.
Orchid: Yeah, we love Selendis’s big band. Both of us have played in it a number of times, but River, you played in it for the first time like last week! It is a group that brings a lot of people together and spurs a lot of collaboration. It’s quite beautiful. Selendis was the first performer in this series as well, so I’m glad that came up.
Francesca: Yes, tracing a very real social thread.
Orchid: Yes. very very real. River, continuing to trace the thread, we only have been making music together, in any capacity, for a very short time, but we just had like three gigs in a row very quickly, with Klavya, with Selendis, and I will be filling in for Angelo in Danger Room for this performance.
River: Yes, it’s a quick arc! And we met via the big band and via audience.
Orchid: What are you planning to do with the Danger Room at The Flag? And can you tell me a bit more about this oncoming “active phase”?
River: We've played a few well spaced out shows so far and those have been for me a period of kind of like getting our set list together and getting the songs to a point where I feel like, “okay, we're ready to start getting deeper into this” I also just got out of college, so it's easier to book more shows now. This is going to be the first show where we aren't playing any new songs, because we actually have a full set list worth of music. It's also the first show where I've gotten a sub, which that's something that I've kind of had to figure out is like, “okay, if you're going to like play regular shows with five people who are all in a million other projects, you might have to be a little flexible like that.”
Orchid: The subbing thing is super interesting. I think this actually might be my first time just straight up subbing for a drummer. This also came up in the last Flag conversation: changing personnel versus long-term collaborations. And Francesca, you were talking about a very long-term collaboration [with Alex McGrath] and then jumped right into talking about a group that is extremely amorphous and is constantly changing, and almost by definition it does not have fixed personnel.
River: For me, I think it's good to be able to bring in subs, because this is really a band leader position for me [in Danger Room] where I'm like, “this is my music, these are my tunes, these are my ideas and my style,” I can really value the collaborators that I have with me, but at the end of the day this project is something that I can do with whatever I've got. When I was first building this band, I was being a lot more thoughtful about finding the perfect chemistry of people that I can try to put together. Now I'm kind of like, okay, we have a group chemistry and I can toy with it a little more if need be. You and I have played together a little bit now, but I don't necessarily know all your habits and musical stylings. And that's kind of fun, you know?
Orchid: I totally agree and I’m honored to be included. Improvising with other people, especially in your own music, is a precious and delicate thing and I'm always surprised when I play with new people. I’ve seen both of you around Brothers Wash & Dry a lot. What is your relationship with that space?
Francesca: I am grateful for that space. It seems to have become so rare that there is such a space and that it's run exclusively by musicians with a particular sympathy and interest and like the realm of music that we all mostly work in. Beyond that, it feels like it has a really nice group of friends and kindred spirits that are always hanging around and hearing people's stuff. And recently it's been nice to see a lot of new people coming through, which for a little bit wasn't quite happening.
River: Yeah, I think the laundromat is a really special place. You get that sense as soon as you walk in and not just because of the decor. Actually going there for the first time felt like a really pivotal point in my college years. I think for the first couple years of living in New York and getting introduced to the music scene here, I wasn't exactly sure where I fit in exactly. The first couple times I went there, it was really like, “okay, like this makes sense now.”
Orchid: Francesca, I definitely agree with you about the new faces coming through and the end of a brief period where—and I guess this is a much broader discussion, like not just about Brothers Wash and Dry—but it felt like there was a brief period of like real siloing and people just booking their close friends and no one else. Somehow, that has stopped happening as much and a lot of new people are coming through the space, and are really eager to put things together. Ok, last question. Do you have anything coming up you are particularly excited about?
Francesca: I will be taking part in the Arts for Arts InGarden series with guitarist Chuck Roth. Chuck is someone that I really enjoy playing with a lot and get along with. I find his approach very compelling and I find myself consistently challenged in playing with him even though we've played together quite a bit now. He always surprises me. We had recorded a bit of material in a studio, and it kind of prompted a dialogue that we wanted to continue. We're working together in preparation for that.
Orchid: Still being surprised by playing with someone you played with a lot too!? Yeah. Also something that can happen. River, anything for you?
River: There's going to be a lot more Danger Room stuff coming up, obviously. I have a few other things in the works right now: some solo performances, the new band I'm doing with Hudson. There also may be some sort of noise project in the works with some other folks, but it's a little too soon to talk about details on that.
The performance portion of The Flag Vol. 2 is on Thursday, July 25, 7:30 PM at Brothers Wash & Dry.
The Flag Vol. 3 will be Thursday, August 27 at 7:30 PM at Brothers Wash & Dry. It will feature Altimetry and Erica Dawn Lyle.